Speaking with Nikki Shield

I had the pleasure of talking to Nikki Shield, founder of Designs Like These. Nikki is a brand designer and we talk about starting a new business, how to be creative and what makes good brand design.

Transcript

SA 0:00

Yeah, just as introduction here with Nikki shield from Designs Like These, who will probably correct me, but you, you look at, well, you help brands design their identity, and you help design their logo, but I'm sure it's much more than that, isn't it for yourself? And you're probably correct me on that way

NS 0:22

I don't know about correcting you. That's the essence of what I do. You're right, though there's a very much help with the foundations and the building of the "why" something looks the way it does lead to all parts of the business to get a really good understanding of what's important to that business, what makes it different and unique. And then take all of those and feed that into the design, because the design needs to represent the business, truly and honestly.

SA 1:00

Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of almost becoming a bit of a mind reader, I guess, into the mind of the clients and how they see their brand and almost personifying that in a way. But I think, what would I be interested in? Because I did Visual Communication at university, and I kind of went into the design role. I just wanted to know how you started off being a designer? Was it something that you did kind of vocationally, what you always knew you're going to do? Is it something that you fell into, in that, you know, like I perhaps did in my role, in some ways is just fell into so was it something you'd always planned to do and always wanted to do?

NS 1:46

Yeah, absolutely. I did, I always want to do that. I was very lucky that I had quite a clear idea early on in life about what I wanted to do. And in actual fact, my first logo design I did at primary school, which was a week competition for the, you know, the parents association, they wanted to logo, they decided to make it into a competition for the kids. And I won that and I was gonna go to the printers and sit at my drawing be made into this logo. And you know, that fuelled my interest, really. Yeah, that I always, yeah, I was good at science. I could do math, but I always wanted to be better at art. And that was the thing that kept my interest right way through. And so I've continued to follow that three and did a university degree in graphic design and went on.

SA 2:48

But that's quite interesting. You say you're interested in that you were interested in good at science and math, because that kind of shows that you have an analytical mind as well. So you kind of use the left side of the right side of your brain. And I think that when somebody has that they can sell the creativity a little bit better. Because they're looking at it from another perspective. If you see what I mean,

NS 3:10

Yeah, that's a really yeah, I've not had someone pointed out like that before. But I do have quite a logical brain as well as the creative side. I definitely mix the two. And I think that really comes into it's own and the consultancy side of what I do. And the questions I ask, and the way I understand businesses I'm working for, I want to cross all the T's and dot all the i's and find out as much as I can. And like I said before, to really get into this is if I'm an extra employee for a bit while I'm working to them.

SA 3:48

Yeah. And I think I think yeah, that those logical steps integrated within the creativity, just make a really nice package. And just talking about your, you know, finding your calling in life at an early age, I think because I felt the same. And I think I'd always been really into animation since I was a kid. I remember getting to see my little The Little Mermaid, for my sixth birthday, I think in 1989 or something. I was blown away and then and then Wallace and Gromit came out you know, and I started to do plasticine animation, stop motion animation with my dad's video camcorder and just pressing quickly pressing start and stop for each frame. Which works to a degree. Yeah, I think, because I was also I always say, you know, like yourself is kind of the analytical mind. I went into kind of digital marketing, but that was predominantly it. But that creative side also really helped and I think I think, kind of going on to my next question is, is, you know, how do you start off in this sort of business? How do you start off in a creative business, because I think it's all well and good to be creative, but you need to have that logical and analytical side to create a business out of it as well.

NS 5:11

Well, I think that's a good question. And there's, there's no right or wrong answer to that, as I'm sure you, you know, I can talk about my particular path. And because I knew I was interested in graphics and the potential to run my own business, I always imagined I might do that one day. So I picked art Business Studies and sociology as my a level subjects with that in mind, and then went on to do a foundation course in art, which is all about spending a year exploring all different art forms just to see which one you feel best suited to. I then continued with the graphics at university. So I followed a very much the educational path that many people get into graphics later on having done other subjects, or perhaps they chose illustration, or even fine art students moved into graphics and decided that they want to move more into the business side of things rather than just producing creatively through their own expression. And that's so yeah, that's, that was my path. But I think one of the most important things I did was actually, the work experience. It doesn't matter how much education you have, if you don't have real world experience you just, you miss something. So you need to build that out. And I've built that up over time throughout education. And then once I finished university, I did several work placements with design companies at London, to just while I was looking for jobs to just continue that experience, I was always in that studio environment, and just getting more and more exposure. Even if I was just mounting up visuals for people, it didn't really matter what I was doing. I was in that world, just building up that experience.

SA 7:16

I think that's a really important aspect as well and you can learn everything technically about what makes a good design, what what what makes you good creatively, how you can get those results, but then I remember moving on from university into work experience and into my first role. I realised I didn't know anything and you go out, you're like, yeah, I can I can use Photoshop, or I can use illustrator or whatever. And you go in and you find I've only just scratched the surface. And those are the people who have been in the industry for 10 plus years, you know, the veterans who kind of learn off. And then following that it's talking to the client and understanding how you can kind of communicate with them to kind of sell your ideas a little bit better.

NS 8:05

Absolutely. And on that side, I've been working with a business mentor for several years now. And that's really helped my thinking on the business side of things and how to make it viable. It's all very well to do creative work, but like, say, you've got to have a business head on as well, to make that viable.

SA 8:25

Yeah. And I think it's being approachable as a person and able to communicate to a degree. Because you could, you could be the best creative mind out there. But if you're not agreeable, if you're offish, and you're very kind of almost arrogant in a way, you know, you're not going to be able to get any work.

NS 8:49

In the graphic design industry, I'm sure with animation as well is it's a sense of tech, you're working for them, you're not working for you, you're not trying to create the next portfolio piece to win yourself an award is that's not what I do. I'm there to help my clients and to help them leverage their business and create the visuals for their business. It's very much all about them.

SA 9:12

Yeah, I think they might come to you with ideas of what they want to see. And they can be quite adamant on them. Sometimes, you kind of, sometimes you have to bite your tongue. And so I don't think that's the best kind of that will look the best and they'll kind of want to change what you've created in some ways. And you kind of have to be a bit malleable in that respect.

NS 9:32

Yeah, yeah. You've got to be able to talk them through it and ask the right questions. And often it's simple. Okay, so why would you like it to be like this? And they might say, well, it's my favourite colour, you know, it. They get people thinking about things as what's important and then once you know why, what they're trying to achieve, you can then maybe suggest a better way of achieving that same result.

SA 9:58

Yeah, it's about compromise, I guess with any relationship, compromise is key. I think.

NS 10:05

People don't really know what they want until they see it. In lots of instances, which is why I like the mystery house type of option as well to say, Well, okay, this is what we've discussed. And this is what we could do. But I'm just gonna throw this into the mix, because I'm sure you thought about this. We could also approach it like this.

SA 10:27

Well, so, you know, talking from a creative side, just on the other side, the kind of client side, I mean, how would a business or small business find their brand in a way? So say, let's say they've got a product? And how would they go about then applying that brand to the product? Because I guess it's a chicken and the egg situation, isn't it? Because they might have a brand already. And they'd be like, okay, so we want to, we want to produce this product around it. But I think a lot of the time there is a product there and businesses are trying to create a brand. So how would I guess what's the best practice for doing that?

NS 11:07

Well, the foundations are key, you wouldn't build a house without foundations. It's if somebody came to me saying, okay, I want I've got this idea this offer this product, and I want to build out some marketing around it, I would talk to them about the business first. Okay, so tell me more about the business. Tell me about who you've worked for. Tell me about who this offer is for. And I will always go back to those foundations to make sure either they are aware of all of that, or if they find it hard to answer these questions, then say, okay, I think we need to do a bit more, think that more deeply about who we're talking to what else is out there on the market? Where the sets? Are there any regulatory bodies that that you need to adhere to? Or be members of, or all the different considerations? How will it be seen? Will it want to be on a shelf in competition with other products? Or will it be purely online sales? Is this just yeah, you know, many, many questions to get all those ideas sorted out at the outset. And only then will I feel comfortable that we can write a brief together, that will get the right results as opposed to just diving and going well, I could look like this or this or this, because an infinite number of ways something could look.

SA 12:39

Yeah, but that's that's the analytical side, isn't it? That's, that's saying, and, again, you need to have that because, I mean, I've seen before some startups and they've got a brand attached to it and they haven't really considered all the variables to do with that, and the audience. And I think that's the key thing is, what is their audience. And that's how you kind of produce your brand in a way,

NS 13:06

Often the in the startup area, it's very difficult for people to know that audience until they've tried it. Often people need to experiment a bit with the audience. And they might go from Plan A to plan B or Plan C before they really settle with what works for them. So often, if you start with something, I think that's fine to get you going, but perhaps one or two years in it, that's the time where it can actually be really helpful to revisit that brand thinking, to see if things have changed, and to see if you need to update the logo or the visuals to catch up with yourself.

SA 13:49

Yeah, and I think I will come from my side is when looking at a product, I always look at demographics, to do that. And I think you know, it could be easier for people who are selling something that is oriented towards a specific audience. Yeah, they could say, well, it's more towards men in their 30s. You know, who, you know, have a dual house income, blah blah. See, you can go from there and say, Well, I'd want it to have masculine colours, masculine kind of geometry and things like that to kind of portray those visuals over to them. And it's, if they have that, that that's kind of a starting point. I think when you kind of get into people who are sending to me a bit more generic and a bit broader it sort of how.... do you approach that a little bit more? Do you go for something a little bit more neutral? Do you go for something that's a little bit more kind of encompassing of all demographics and accept, you know, you're not singling out anyone and I think, again, but that's probably something more for bigger brands, isn't it that they need to consider?

NS 14:54

I think every brand really has the potential to find something that they can focus on in terms of the way they present themselves, even if it's habits or a feeling. And sometimes when I'm looking for the right font for the particular business or client, it is a bit of a feeling. I think that's when the creative side comes in. I can't really explain it. It's not a logical process. It's just about looking at it and thinking, does this feel x, y, and Z? And does it see the business? And does it see the potential audience? Rather than Okay, that one looks cool, let's use that.

SA 15:41

I do sometimes get a bit of a eureka moment where you're like, Yeah, that's it. That's just nailed it. And I think this is the kind of the jigsaw pieces kind of falling into place.

NS 15:50

And sometimes it's very simple you know, the simple solutions are often the best, and often the hardest to do, actually. But sometimes it's the simple solutions, perhaps typographically, but then it's the combination of colours or visuals or the types of imagery that you use with that can make all the difference.

SA 16:09

So what do you what do you think makes a good memorable brand?

NS 16:20

Wow, that's a question.

SA 16:25

And it's a bit it is an open ended one. I think, for me, we're not when I see a brand and I talked about this before, it's how they engage something emotionally. If you see something that doesn't really, he kind of sees me like, Okay, fine.

NS 16:41

I think you hit the nail on the head. Branding is about waking up an emotional response and somebody and if they don't feel anything, or respond, and they're not, you know, engaged with them.

SA 16:58

If you look at something more dynamic, like Coca Cola, for example, they'll bring out like, they're seasonal ads, that they'll be emotionally evoking because, you know, they captured that wonder, and then they'll also, I think, Coca Cola or more around community as well and they'll capture that kind of emotion. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was a very broad example, but but I think its that what makes things a little bit more memorable for me when I kind of like, and it could be anything could be sadness, it could be kind of happiness, it could be excitement, it could be anything. The other thing I think, is perhaps something that makes you maybe thinking isn't an emotion, but makes you think about it as well. So there's an emotional side, and then the thinking about it. And I've seen some brands achieve that in some ways. And they've done that through their logos as well, where they've, they've incorporated the visuals into their type, or you know, a symbol or something like that, that, that kind of make you look back and go...I remember logos that I've seen, like 10 years ago, that I just thought was so clever, because they they were just so clever, and how they were executed in that way.

NS 18:20

There's so many different types, there's, like you say, there's those clever ones with the hidden symbols or the bit of text that just works perfectly with a double meaning or a pairing of two different things that just make sense. But then you've got your more typographical ones, which you just get to know and they become friends, if you like things that you're very familiar with. I think a lot of that relates to products, but in terms of businesses and services, again, it's about you might buy a business or service and it's generally to help you and give you support. And that also can become a familiar thing that perhaps you use the website as part of the service new, there's a membership area and you want that to be familiar and a nice place to be that you work for you or continually motivating or something like that.

SA 19:26

Yeah, yeah. And I think also colour, colour as well that kind of drives an emotional response as well. And that should be anything you see and everything. I mean, you kind of look at darker kind of richer colours as being more luxurious or high end products. You look at pastel colours as being perhaps more childish and more fun and those elements as well to really consider, that you....

NS 19:55

You can combine the two so give you a darker deep colour, sense of stability. And then lighter colours and softness, because of the type of audience you're talking to.

SA 20:05

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I mean, you talked about working in house within agencies as well, before, and now you sort of got off on your own and making your own business out of it? How did that feel initially. So moving from those two environments,

NS 20:25

Oh, working in agencies, you have your safety net, if I wasn't bringing in the business as it were. I was working in the studio alongside other designers, moving to working in your own business. There is obviously a transition from being part of the team to being the team. But I very, very quickly got into local networking, which really helped replace those colleagues, and that sense of community and being in the business community rather than the office community. So that really, really helped,

SA 21:02

Because we met through the Federation of small businesses, didn't we. Yeah, I think I think that that is a very good resource for anybody who is potentially going on their own. And during, especially during this time, where we seen a massive boom in freelancers, and, you know, people being self employed because of the pandemic, and because of the nature of the environment at the moment.

NS 21:27

Yeah. And I think it also replaced some of that element, they have a legal helpline, as part of their membership, which I found really reassuring to know, I had some support there without feeling like I was completely on my own. And I've used it a few times to see, yeah, it's good to build up other types of networks, when you don't have that immediate office environment, a studio environment around you.

SA 21:54

Yeah. Because I mean, I remember, I remember going off, and doing my own thing after working, you know, in a big company for a while and having that safety net, as you say, and I remember being terrified, because you don't know where to start, in some ways, you think, well, I have this I have the skill isn't sellable? Can I can actually put this in front of people? And, you know, I've been paid for it before, but in a big, you know, how do I get myself out there, you almost have to create a brand for yourself in that way...

NS 22:31

You do, and I think that's the hardest one to do.

SA 22:35

Yeah, I think, but it kind of happens over time. And I realised that being self employed, you have to create opportunities for yourself. And you have to keep your ear to the ground a lot and put yourself out there, rather than just waiting for things to come to you.

NS 22:54

I think learning to put yourself out there is is key. And I did that from day one, which is just absolutely what got me going if you like, I started by contacting people I knew. And then I started by doing that nerve wracking thing of walking into a room full of people you don't know and your first networking meeting. So now we rarely go to a networking meeting without knowing a few people because I'm part of that community now. So yeah, that's been a good support that having building up your knowledge using resources, but actually approached it quite logically to think, okay, what do I need, building that brand, my own brand, launching a website, starting to tell people on there because you can't have a secret business

SA 23:50

I think if you have that confidence as well, to get out in front of people, to communicate what you're about, I think if you don't have that confidence, and you're probably a little bit unsure about yourself, I think you need to take a step back and take stock of kind of what are you doing? How are you trying to put forward that that service to people because if you're not confident in what you're doing, then the client or the prospective client certainly won't be confident in what you're doing.

NS

When I first started out, I was confident in my skills and abilities as a designer, but I was not confident in my ability to run a business.

SA

Yeah. And I think that's the thing, isn't it?

NS 24:34

You build it up slowly. And right, you're in it for the long game.

SA 24:40

Yeah. I mean, so I started out, I went on LinkedIn. And I had a good network there. From agencies I've worked with before and I basically said, this is this is what I'm doing now. And they're like, oh, okay, okay. And they were like, you know, you could look at this and this and this and I get that dialogue for a while, and nothing really came of it. And I realised I was doing a few kind of almost like pitches, but I wasn't really getting paid for it. And it was a bit frustrating that way, then I kind of went on to Freelancer and if you know that site and Bark who they're there where you can kind of it's a bit like the Fiverr websites where you can kind of get a freelancer on there for cheap. And that, that helped me build my portfolio up in some ways. But again, it was kind of a you won't be able to make a living off it. It was ueah, kind of, I think I wasn't really getting paid more than 100 pounds per project, you know, that the week or so. And I'll be like, this isn't sustainable. But like I said, That's not you creating an opportunity for yourself. And actually off the back of that I've managed to get repeat customers and repeat clients who have come back and said, Can you do this for me, now we've got a social campaign, blah, blah, blah. And I think if you produce reliably good work for them, and you can be able to communicate to them, then you're able to kind of achieve that. And then you start to take the next step. And you put yourself out there a little bit more, and then word of mouth comes and then you start to realise it, actually, you can make it but in terms of timescales, I don't know how long it is for you. But I kind of felt like it was probably the best part of a year before I got to that point.

NS 26:25

Yeah, I think six months to a year of networking before I really saw any real results from that activity. And then I started to see there, as soon as you get one thing leads to another and another like you say, and that's when I it was only then I realised that you need to do at least six months of plugging away meeting the same people again and again, before you happen to be in the room with someone at the right place at the right time where they're actually looking for someone or need your help. And then I've had people that I've met good conversations with them and then maybe three years later, they've got in touch because they didn't have at that time. So it's there's, it does work. But if people think it's gonna work from one or two meetings, then...

SA 27:20

If you have the patience, then you know, and you believe in what you're doing, and you're willing to weather through that those difficult times at the start, then you will get there. And I think that, especially in a culture now where instant gratification is rife, people struggle to deal with that...

NS 27:40

And it's taken me 10 years to build up the business. And I'm still looking for ways to improve it and build on it. But I'm definitely in a place now where I feel like I'm able to not pick and choose as such, but shape it and in the way I want it to go so that I'm attracting the right people and the right sorts of jobs, rather than initially just saying yes to everything.

SA 28:08

Yeah, you do at the start, they decide to take it. Yeah, I'll do this. And yeah, so I mean, kind of finishing off, I don't know if you had any advice for any designers that will k, you know, coming into work for themselves in a way. Are you did you have any words of wisdom at all, for them or anything?

NS

Specifically for people going freelance,

SA

I think yeah, well, actually, no, let's let's be broad it is to say for anyone who's the creative, I think, what would be if you could, if you could give them a rule or principle to follow, what what would that be?

NA 28:49

I think experiences everything experience of working with people experienced on the job for people working within agencies. Then sort of sit back and accept necessarily look for all those opportunities and create opportunities to meet and talk to clients or or other people in the business. You you've got to be proactive in your own career development. I was certainly guilty of sitting behind the screen in my comfortable studio of five designers, whatever, and accepting it a bit. And then I started thinking Actually, I want to do more patients and client facing things. But you have to you have to say that you have to ask for it. Not necessarily. There isn't one straight path that you just follow. You create opportunities, you look for opportunities and you enjoy it and you follow what you enjoy it. If it's forced creatively, it just won't happen. Your best work and it's all forced.

SA 29:57

So don't don't be complacent really. Continue to challenge yeah not just not just external kind of stuff but internally as well yourself. You know, keep trying to be the better creative person than you were the day before, I guess in a way,

NS

Always always looking learning listening.

SA

Yeah, yeah, the rules for life really that we've got everything off ago. Anyway, that was that was really good talking to you. So thanks a lot for that.